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Hi Blog. Some weeks ago a Debito.org Reader posed an interesting question to the Comments Section. Let me rephrase it like this:
- What is your threshold for remaining in a society? Are there any conditions which will occasion you to consider an exit strategy?
Caveats: Of course, this can apply to anyone anywhere. But a) since this is a blog about Japan, and b) people who have chosen to live in another society for whatever reason have the experience of moving from one place to another (hence “hometown inertia” is not a factor), let’s make this specific to people who are living (or have lived) in Japan.
What would have to happen (or did happen) for you to have to decide to move out of Japan?
It’s an interesting hypothetical. For some expats/residents/immigrants in history, even a war was not enough (see the interesting case of William Gorham). So it’s all a matter of personal preference. What’s yours? Dr. ARUDOU, Debito
56 comments on “Discussion: Should I stay or should I go? What’s your personal threshold for staying in or leaving Japan?”
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Just thinking about my kid going to school and being raised here makes me want to leave yesteryear.
In turn, Rotary exchange student, Mombusho grad student, expat package with investment bank, small business owner. Permanent residency, 35 years in Japan, fluent in Japanese, living a little large in Tokyo, liked the country and the people (with the usual subjective caveats), Japanese wife, planning to move somewhere rural where our bones would be buried.
And then Fukushima happens, appalled by the official and societal responses, my wife and I were gone in 11 months.
And have never looked back. Very happy where we are now. Probably should have made the move sooner but Japan for us had become a bit or warm bath that was hard to climb out of. Silver linings, etc.
Japan now to me like an old girlfriend. Lots of fond memories but it didn’t work out in the end so that’s that.
Go!
For all the reasons catalogued on Debito.org, go!
For the fact that the international community is enabling Abe to make Japan even worse for NJ, go!
For the fact that Japan’s demographic and fiscal timebomb means that standards of living in Japan will inevitably drop, go!
Something I think about from time to time (best to do the thinking in advance before the situation turns). For me, I like living in Japan and find it comfortable and easy. I don’t have a strong attachment to the country though so would be willing to move if circumstances change.
For me, the following would be deal-breakers:
1. personal safety
If it became dangerous to be here day-to-day I would leave. This includes natural and nuclear disasters, state and public violence, or food/service shortages.
2. financial safety
If the government made moves towards confiscating assets (a substantial wealth tax, etc.)
3. enjoyment
If my quality of life declined substantially, to the extent that I didn’t enjoy living here any more. I can’t imagine what this would look like as I am an introvert happy in my own head, but am keeping it in mind.
4. government hostility
If the government became actively hostile towards me or my family, in terms of new legislation or rhetoric targeting us.
I don’t think the above are likely (#3 is probably the most likely) but I believe prepared is forearmed 🙂
Nice opportunity to do tanaoroshi of own ideas.
Threshold is financialy stability/safety. Even though I am paying taxes every month, I would never live here under social welfare (pension). NJ are discrimated in the access to public services, it would be much worse being 60-65 yrs old
Regarding a major event, I would say colossal natural disaster (i.e. Big one in Tokyo) or a nuke from North Korea.
PS
I have no kids, but it would freak me out to think to educate my kids in Japan…I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night
Why are people here against having their children educated at Japanese schools?
OK here’s what keeps me in Japan off the top of my head (admittedly this is just my own perception so could be faulty):
Excellent healthcare – sure it’s not perfect, but very few countries come close. If you are very wealthy (and no one can absolutely guarantee they will remain so), you might be able to get better healthcare in the US (although there are some flaws in the US system, as there are everywhere that might still get you, but would not in other countries). However one area where Japan probably can’t be superseded currently is the average kindness, fastidiousness and politeness of nursing staff. I’ve had major operations in multiple countries and I’ve worked in healthcare, so I’ve seen it from key sides, if you are ever going to get sick or infirm (and you probably will), you could do far worse than Japan. (The Philippines is very good too in my experience.)
Safety – Natural and other disasters aside. You (and your family) are likely to be much safer in Japan. Sure there are problems here like sexual predators and a fair share of mentally disturbed people, but there is little drug related crime or gun crime and the threat from terror appears at least much lower than Europe if not the US.
Politeness – Is some of it forced/fake? Sure, but still a little civility goes a long way, it’s hard to get through an hour in many cities outside Japan without encountering open hostility, if you want to live in world like GTA, that’s fine, but it’s not for me.
Social solidarity: Not perfect of course, and not for everyone, but while the group-think can get annoying, I feel there’s a great degree of social solidarity and civic pride, a lot of volunteering and I feel people would pull together in a crisis, that’S reassuring, in the US one can’t help thinking a lot of people are just waiting for a crisis to start an all out civil war.
Public Intelligence/Rationality – Ok, so some might not be feeling this one, but for all the complaints that Japanese people can sometimes behave like obedient sheep and have a narrow world view, in general most Japanese have relatively high level of education and they tend to read a lot, both books and newspapers, the media here may be indirectly censored, but the analysis you get of important issues is actually pretty good on TV compared to the dumbed down analysis you tend to get on western TV news media. Finally I find it reassuring that most Japanese are broadly secular and scientific in outlook (the whole blood group nonsense not withstanding), I think that can help to navigate the challenges we are increasingly facing as technology advancement accelerates. (I recognize this might be negative for many.) I think many Japanese would react angrily if they felt their core rights were being impinged on and/or if their quality of life was being rapidly eroded.
Prosperity – This interacts with the other factors, but in general Japan is a wealthy society with importantly relatively low inequality, which supports social cohesion and low crime. This might change a bit, but seems unlikely to do so rapidly.
Civil liberties – So there is of course a lot of work to do on these, especially in relation to NJ, but at least on paper freedom of speech and freedom from surveillance are strongly guaranteed. Freedom of speech has virtually gone in Europe and obvious Americans are under heavy surveillance. There’s obviously a problem with the way suspects are treated and convicted, but you have to balance that against the fact that Japan hardly incarcerates anyone compared with say, the US and if you do end up in jail unjustly at least you have a fairly good chance of coming out of it alive and relatively unscathed, that doesn’t leave me complacent, about it, but it’s clear which country I’d prefer to live in. Obviously you are also far more unlikely to be gunned down at a routine traffic stop by police here too, even if you are overtly a foreigner.
Pacifism – Sure it’s under siege by the right here, but it’s still far ahead of most western countries – if Trump, or even Clinton get’s in, do you think they will be any better than Abe, of course they will probably be far, far worse. Sure this needs to be kept under review, but while there is still freedom of speech there is hope.
Public services – Not perfect, and maybe a bit bloated and bureaucratic, but the roads are free of pot-holes, the elevators all work, the internet almost never goes down, there are no power cuts usually, the trains run on time etc…
So there would have to be significant deterioration in these things before I’d consider leaving, and there would have to be somewhere better to go to, moderate hardship like 3/11 wouldn’t be nearly enough to make me abandon the country and the people who I feel I have a strong affiliation with (even if that’s not returned by everyone).
The pre-existing negatives are of course are the stingy bad corporations and working environments (though you can find them in other countries too, US is for most employees worse overall), the ridiculous elements of group-think and the over regulation of daily life. But a lot of that can be avoided by carefully choosing where you work and in some cases by ignoring it. It also seems to be easing with time, things are much better than even 15 years ago in many companies.
In these kinds of discussions people often fail to look at the alternatives realistically. Where would you go where things are actually going to be better than Japan? Canada perhaps, if you don’t mind the cold, Norway or Switzerland perhaps. New Zealand maybe. However if you like living in a city or somewhere with good weather I’m not convinced there are m/any alternatives.
Still I think it’s always good to be asking these questions, if only to bring clarity on where Japan needs to change or where it needs to treasure what it’s got. I’m certainly interested to hear other opinions.
Well I’ve said it before but it bears repeating. After 12y building our scientific careers in Japan, with a fair level of success, our employer not only disbanded our research group but also decided they would rather sack my wife and I than offer tenure-track positions (it wasn’t even the point of tenure, just whether we would be eligible to apply!) so we walked before our non-renewable contracts expired. I blogged about it in some detail:
http://julesandjames.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/new-jobs.html
http://julesandjames.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/no-good-deed-goes-unpunished.html
http://julesandjames.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/final-score.html
1. Pay
2. Safety
I’d say 2 has been reached but 1 never, and never will be according to a threshold or a monopoly that treats foreign workers as a repository of information that is disseminated to the whole for whatever the popular national goal is at the time. Would I recommend Japan? Absolutely not. And this has been confirmed with the number of top foreign firms that have closed their Japanese branch.
Also, my experience was two years on JET. I left because I didn’t see any path towards interesting work. Virtually everyone I knew who stayed on post JET wound up teaching English in some capacity, and that just didn’t interest me.
@Tom R:
” that treats foreign workers as a repository of information that is disseminated to the whole for whatever the popular national goal is at the time.”
You put that really well.
@ Chris B #7
IMHO, you are painting an overly glossy picture of life in Japan. I disagree with just about everything you said, but haven’t got an hour or two to rebut you point by point.
— You really don’t need to. This blog post is asking for personal thresholds of staying or going. We aren’t really debating each others’ preferences or viewpoints. As long as the viewpoint answers the question of the tipping point (which it does), then it adds to the discussion.
@ A #6
Against it because the system is so institutionally racist that the complaining to the teachers that your children are being ‘othered’ and bullied for not being or acting ‘100% Japanese’ results in teachers replying ‘but your children are not 100% Japanese, so where’s your problem?’ attitude. They just can’t see that they are part of the problem. In fact, they don’t even see a problem; they are totally entitled to act that way in their own minds.
Yes I agree about health care. Surgery in the US is more expensive. If my spouse’s health gets worse, I will stay.
Personally after making less money the last two years I don’t see a point in staying. As one gets older, age discrimination is real, and I don’t want to be underemployed, so I think it is time to go.
Lots of teachers just juggle part-time jobs but you only get more money if you work more. Plus in the US I can work and get a state pension, too. Here my wife was told if she retires in two years she will just get 60,000 yen per month. Turns out people over 80 are getting better pensions.
@Debito Thanks for opening this topic!!
Why leave? Let me count the reasons.
I’ve been here for 20 years. I was a proud lifer telling friends that I will live out all of my days here. I’m self employed, make decent money, own three houses in rural Kansai, quality of life has been good. Then, 5 years ago, my daughter was born. I soon began to feel a disturbance in the force. I ignored it and soldiered on with ever fading optimism. Then finally I had to admit to myself that raising my daughter here is cruel. Yes, cruel. There’s no other word for it.
@A #6 asks why people are so against Japanese education. It’s my top reason for leaving so here’s my take on why it sucks so much. I don’t have such a big problem with the elementary schools here. It’s the 10 years of Junior High to university that I am in abject horror of. First up is 6 years of cramming and rote memorization with absolutely no development of critical thinking skills. Students are programmed with nihonjinron bullshit and any individuality they have is crushed so they will be a proper unquestioningly obedient sheeple. So many things will suffer, the damage to her confidence and self-esteem will change her whole life for the worse. Plus, summer vacation is way too short and they are loaded down with homework to prevent the onset of having fun or spending time with the family. I consider putting your child through this when you have the means not to as colossal failure in parenting.
Of course bullying is always a potential problem.
Then university is a 2 year binge drinking session followed by 2 years of job hunting. It’s a colossal waste of time, money, and potential. I have more respect for mail order degrees than J university degrees.
I imagine to myself what situation my daughter would find herself in at age 22 (17 years from now) should we stay. She would have a shit education, no critical thinking skills, entering a stagnant job market (that’s generous I’m more inclined to think it will be horrible) in a vigorously sexist society that has the worst demographics and GDP/debt ratio in the world. All the while trying to live her life in a fog of ever present soft racism. No way! Not if I can help it.
Also among friends and acquaintances there are tons of people working stupid hours and/or living apart from their spouse and children at the whim of their employer. Nobody fights it, they just surrender and go with it. I don’t want my daughter to grow up thinking this is normal or this is ok.
Other reasons for leaving are myriad. The following is the full list of contributing factors. My daughters education, bullying, racism, sexism, global warming, unsustainable demographics, inheritance issues for both my wife and I as well as our daughter, unsustainable and unfair pension system, quality of life, quality of death, social pressure (on my wife and daughter, people have given up on trying to manipulate me), neighborhood associations, clinical depression (none of us but soooo many people we know), geopolitical shenanigans with N.Korea and China, yellow sand, PM2.5, earthquakes, nuclear power, poisonous animals. I can elaborate on any of these.
We are going to Canada. Japan is warmer and safer (Japan is safe in regards to physical harm but psychologically I think it’s quite punishing.) That’s all the positives I could come up with for Japan.
We will remember our time here fondly and visit every couple years. I don’t want to hate Japan but I think that’s what it will come to if I was forced to stay. It was fun and educational, I would recommend it to others but caution them against staying to long.
I think for many expats a Japanese spouse dead set against leaving would a pervasive reason for staying. I have several friends whom when I ask about if they plan to leave Japan can only say “nah, the wife would never go for it.”
@jim di griz are you in Japan or gone already?What was your main reason for leaving?
would have to agree with Jim D on Chris B
Pretty much disagree with everything he posted. Would like to agree and make everybody feel good, but IMO thats allot of cringe worthy stuff that I cant honestly agree too.
And as Jim D posted, it would take too long. Luckily there are lots of people around that you can connect with and share the gems and truths. I dont waste my time with others anymore )
Unstable employment situation/opportunities, the inability of society to accept you as a regular person, vastly lower pay ceiling for the same (or more) work compared to other countries, mandated discrimination in securing public services (foreigners go after all of the Japanese at the license center in my prefecture regardless of what time you showed up, because that’s not comically Rosa Park-esque), lack of basic anti-discrimination laws (or their enforcement) that apply to non-citizens, lack of enforcement of laws preventing discrimination in hiring, a judiciary that is more concerned with staying buddy-buddy with the government than enforcing laws in a fair and unbiased manner, the comparably low standard of work-life balance, plus the frankly terrifying prospect of sending my children to school here. There are a lot more that I can’t be bothered to recall in the 30 seconds it took me to write this.
Pick one.
We are moving on in a year or two, we decided to leave because we did not want to put our children in the Japanese school system and are youngest will be school age in two years so thats why we are leaving. And its also the constant us against them mentality over here that drives me crazy, its like the twilight zone over here.
I’ve been here ten years and now is the time for me to go. There is a strong train of thought within sections of the Japanese who say Western and Eastern philosophies are different, and so Japan should be left unjudged, as it’s like comparing apples and oranges. Fair enough. If you insist. I believe in national sovereignty. I have no desire to proselytise Western values. From my perspective Japan is racist, sexist, undemocratic etc. And they think “So what?”. Nor do I find anything worthwhile in trying to assimilate into what appears to me a medieval worldview.
I have no family here so nothing invested, but to spend my life here feeling alienated railing against a majority that has no immediate desire to change into my enlightened ways of thinking is pissing in the wind as well as incredibly soul destroying. I’m no martyr for the cause, nor desperate for employment here, just some white guy lifestyle immigrant.
One other thing that adds to the alienation is the ugliness of the built environment. Yes it’s clean, but it’s ugly. And that is depressing. I hear the slogan ‘Japan: where traditional and modern live in harmony’. What a crock of tatemae blinkered nationalistic shit!
The idea of working my ass off to buy one of those beige functional box houses with wires and machinery hanging out of it makes me laugh. I could move to the country and have any view spoiled by piles of gravel, machinery, blue tarpaulins, anzen daichi signs, and tacky billboards. No thanks!
Debito poses an interesting question here.
However, we’re missing at least half the picture when we focus only on the Japan side of the ledger. It’s not so much the positives of Japan that keep people here, nor is it the negatives that force them to leave. Rather, it’s the things waiting for them “on the other side” that are decisive. The sad fact is, few long-term gaijin have any real options outside Japan, and this is what keeps them in Japan.
In my case, my Japanese wife and I decided to leave Japan because we didn’t want our kids educated or socialized in Japan. Hotspur’s post (#15) perfectly explains our reasons for this. I agree with Hotspur: Japanese primary school education isn’t bad at all. In fact, I think it’s pretty good. But, as Hotspur noted, it goes straight downhill from there. We didn’t want our kids to have to go to school after school (juku) in order to stay competitive. Nor did we want them to suffer through years of creativity-destroying rote memorization. Nor did we want them to be continually reminded that they’re different. But most importantly, we didn’t want them to have to play by all the Japanese rules, but still be treated as second-class citizens. So, we chose to leave.
But, we were very lucky. My work is totally portable. Most long-term gaijin don’t have this luxury. They came to Japan intending to stay a year or two. They became English teachers because that was the easiest and most lucrative thing to do. And, as years passed, instead of laying the foundation for a career after Japan, they almost unconsciously started putting all their eggs into the English teaching basket. For most of them, their goal was to get a job at a Japanese university, which is widely consider the holy grail among English teachers in Japan.
Unfortunately, few of them anticipated the changes that would befall the world of Japanese university teachers (elimination of tenured positions, lower salaries, the rise of three-year contracts etc), not to mention the changes that would befall Japan at large (demographic changes, the abandonment of “kokusaika”, and the resurgence of nationalism and racism). And ever fewer long-term gaijin thought about what would happen if they got married and had kids. Despite seeing the product of the Japanese “education” system on a daily basis in their classrooms, they never really considered the possibility that they might one day have to send their own kids through the very same system.
Debito’s Japan Times article titled “Time to Burst Your Bubble and Face Reality” is a brutally realistic explanation of how long-term gaijin find themselves trapped in an increasingly uncomfortable existence in Japan. I think that piece should be required reading for all bright-eyed gaijin who arrive in Japan intending to work for a year or two. But, to be honest, I think that Debito overstates the case a bit. Japan can be a great place to live if you’re single or married without children. If you are self-employed and have the money and freedom to travel overseas several times a year, Japan can be one of the best places on earth to live. And it’s easy to ignore a lot of the things that people complain about on this blog. But, if you’ve got kids to consider, especially half-Japanese kids to consider, the picture changes entirely.
The options for those with half-Japanese kids who want to stay in Japan range from bad to worse. The cheapest and easiest option is simply to send them to regular Japanese public schools, the end result of which is kids who are linguistically and mentally Japanese, so they won’t be able to work outside Japan and they’ll have to enter the Japanese working world, where they’ll face certain discrimination. Another option, for those who can afford it, is to send the kids to an international school, but this results in kids who are essentially “homeless.” Japan will be their only home, but they won’t have the Japanese language skills to enter the Japanese working world. Working overseas is an option for such kids, but every country but Japan will be a foreign country to such kids.
Most long-term gaijin with kids are at least partially aware of this reality. However, they stay put because they’ve painted themselves into a corner. They know that Japan isn’t a great deal for them or their kids, but they also know that if they leave Japan, they’ll face a DRASTIC reduction in quality of life. I mean, just how many employers back home are looking for people with 15 years of English teaching experience and lower-intermediate spoken Japanese (and no reading or writing ability)? The options are teaching English back home for half the pay, or taking a big gamble and going back to school for something (hopefully) more useful.
So, it really doesn’t matter where the threshold is for leaving Japan. Almost any insult and privation must be endured by the long-term gaijin and his children, because it will be even worse “over there.”
Thus, the advice I’d give any newcomer to Japan is this: Think ahead. Japan is filled with opportunities. Just don’t mindlessly follow the standard route which will lead you into a cul-de-sac of hating Japan but being unable to leave. Rather, learn Japanese. Start a business. Think on a daily basis what you will do AFTER Japan. That way, you won’t find yourself thinking, “If it gets too bad, I’ll leave.” Instead, you’ll be able to think, “Once this goal is met, I’ll start the next chapter in another country.” This is simply a paradigm shift, from passive to active.
And, for those who are not newcomers but long-term gaijin with kids, I can say this: It’s never too late to get started on building a path to a great life after Japan!
Good luck!
Right now I am 正社員 at a reputable company, with good prospects. If that changed, and I had to go back to being on a fixed-term contract, then that would force me to reassess staying or leaving. Deciding to get married and having kids would also be a factor. Right now, I am single, and have zero ambitions to marry a Japanese woman and have a kid together. If I were to marry a non-Japanese person, then I guess we would both have to make a decision about staying or leaving. I think raising a half-Japanese kid in Japan is basically cruel on the child. I would rather a private school abroad (all non-private schools in my home country are junk). Other than these factors, I am pretty content in Japan….cost of living is cheap (especially when you don’t drink alcohol like the locals!), health system is decent (once you know where to go/avoid), the countryside is very nice, transport system is efficient….
@Eric C (#20)
Liked your positive but realistic post. Completely agree that preparation and thinking ahead (what is plan B?) are crucial.
English teaching can be lucrative and fun if you keep hustling (I work at a university and run a private English school) but you are right to be sceptical of doing a single typical English teaching job 🙂
Sendaiben’s deal breakers are the most succinct:
1. personal safety- Sendaiben mentions natural/nuclear disasters – hasn’t this happened already? And food shortages and rationing started in the wake of 3/11, not to mention hoarding and panic buying.
2. financial safety- rising taxes, compulsory pension/hoken contributions to get a visa now in force.
3. enjoyment- Japan, the “odotte wa ikenai” kuni (tho a recently reversed law but its still like, do we need permission to dance and have fun?)
4. government hostility- Sendaiben mentions rhetoric against NJs. Again,surely this is already happening, especially against resident Koreans and Chinese, big time.
Seems like the deal is already broken. Especially if comparing Japan now to life in Tokyo in the 80s.
PS. I note the comment someone made about a N. Korean nuclear attack being a deal breaker. Sadly it would then already be too late to make a rational decision to leave, unless you were far away from the target. Even then, there would be a mass exodus so good luck getting an exit ticket.
@ Debu #2, would you care to share which country (or just continent) you are happy in now?
We need to consider happier alternatives to Japan.
First, a little bit of background about me:
Having lived in East Asia for over 15 years in my 29-year life, I’m what you’d call a “lifer” in East Asia. When I’m in my passport country, I feel like a fish out of water. I’ve tried moving back/reintegrating there from East Asia twice (at age three, then again at age 14, because my dad’s job kept sending us to and from East Asia). Both times, I’ve ended up back in East Asia. I moved back to East Asia when I was 19 and haven’t lived in my passport country since. My resolve to stay in East Asia is rock-solid and even if I move back to my passport country, I’ll always miss East Asia. I’ve lived in Japan (five and a half years), Korea (five years), Hong Kong (three years), and Taiwan (a year and a half).
Japan specifically, though, is a little bit more negotiable. It would be extremely difficult for me to live without East Asia, but I CAN live without a specific East Asian country if that country pisses me off enough.
The following is my “personal threshold for staying in or leaving Japan:”
1. As long as staying does not seriously jeopardize my mental health or my physical safety
2. As long as permanent residence someday is still a possibility. Permanent residence is the light at the end of the tunnel–the official Japanese government acknowledgment that I’m no longer a temporary guest, that allows me to live here freely and do what I need to do to become a truly successful human being. If acquiring permanent residence becomes impossible for me for any reason, I’ll be out of here in the time it takes you to say “Ah!”
3. As long as staying does not mean “teaching English indefinitely.” Believe it or not, being Mr. Gaijin McEnglish was not my lifelong goal. I want to work in IT/computers, and I want to use the Japanese skills it has taken me many years to develop.
If one of those “as long as” statements were to fail, I would leave Japan–but not East Asia. I’d probably go to Korea (because I lived there for five years and know it well, including the language) or Singapore (because of its racial diversity and anti-discrimination laws).
Why do I live in Japan and not another East Asian country? Actually, I find the languages and cultures of every East Asian country very interesting and I find that my lifestyle is actually very similar from one East Asian country to the next, so the reasons are quite pragmatic:
1. Japan will probably never be under the control of the Chinese Communist Party (this rules out China, Hong Kong [I love it, but it’s losing its autonomy], Macau, and probably Taiwan [currently democratic, but too small to stand up to China indefinitely], someday) or any other extreme totalitarian government (this rules out North Korea). If I were subject to the rule of such a government, I am quite sure I would be severely persecuted. Yes, worse than here. Abe may be bad, but compared to the leadership in Mainland China and North Korea, Japan’s system looks much better (though the last four years have seen this gap narrow).
2. Japan has traditionally had much better visas and treatment of foreigners than South Korea. Until 2009, it was virtually impossible to get PR in South Korea unless you had Korean blood, a Korean spouse, or at least 500,000,000 won (about $500,000 at that time). When I left South Korea in 2009, foreigners were extremely limited in what they could do–they could only work for one employer (no part-time work), their employers owned their visas, and they were forbidden or de facto forbidden from doing such basic things as volunteering or doing online shopping. Absolutely ridiculous. I was also assaulted in Korea one night by a drunk, racist Korean soldier whom I had never met before–he just yelled “HEY WHITE PERSON!” and when I turned around he started punching me.
However, I will note that KOREA HAS REALLY CHANGED. When I lived there, 1% of the population was foreign. Now, it’s 4%. International marriages are much higher than Japan, now. Their visas have improved dramatically and PR might only take me four years. I have also come to realize that the Korean police are probably less racist than the Japanese police–fewer racial profilings, and they take reports more seriously (they actually drove me around the neighborhood to find my attacker).
3. Singapore seems like a nice place. I’ve never been there, but would love to go, and they have the Anti-Sedition Law, which sounds like a breath of fresh air for racial minorities after watching uyoku sound trucks drive past all the time in Japan. However, Singapore is elite–you can’t just go there with a bachelor’s degree and get a job teaching English–you have to be a highly-skilled migrant to even have a chance at getting a job there. Maybe one day, I’ll be that, but not anytime soon.
So yeah, if one of the three “thresholds” that I enumerated above were violated, I would leave Japan, but not East Asia. I would probably go back to Korea (which has gotten much better over the past seven years) or aim high and try to get my foot in the door of ultra-elite Singapore.
@Eric #20 – great comment.
I think the Brits and Canadians would have a harder time in moving back to their countries and I have met just one who did – to learn to drive a truck in Alberta.
Australia has opportunity as does the US.
What is positive is that it is a good time to buy a place to live in Japan, with a mortgage at a low rate.
But there are the downsides. For the teachers, there will be fewer students and there are too many universities and not all of them will survive. Some people (apologists included) would peddle that Japan is a great place or a career, but refuses to consider the demographic crisis which will happen. It really is the case of the frog slowly getting boiled in the pot.
I left in 2004 at the age of 33 simply because I didn’t want to be an eikaiwa teacher, or have my fate linked to eikaiwa, for the rest of time. Happily enough, I’ve since been able to change careers (I now work as a writer and as a digital marketer) and ever since then we’ve been able to spend part of the year in Japan, and my kids actually go to school there for part of the year. They love it, we love it, but we’d rather they go to a Canadian university.
So, for me anyway, it was all about getting “trapped” in a crappy job in the English-industry. I have spent all of my 20+ years connected to Japan in rural Japan. I don’t regret that, but unless you live in Tokyo there are few jobs outside of teaching available. Moving back to Canada allowed me to reskill and get a job where I can work anywhere, including from Japan. Autonomy has been the key.
The Japanese education system is very good so far. My kids loved elementary school, and my older son enjoys middle school (likely because we have good relations with many of the teachers at the school, my wife’s alma mater).
I would see high school in Japan as being the same sort of experience, although we’re not sure if a Japanese uni is the best choice for our kids, although we do hope they will spend a year as an exchange student at a Japanese university, preferably in Kyoto, since student life is so fun.
We’re really optimistic about the future, and really enjoy our lives, and the chance to have a connection with Japan.
@ Brooks #27
Yes, you’re really getting to the crux of it there IMHO.
Some posters have said things along the lines of (forgive me for paraphrasing), ‘Yes, Japan is a dead end street if your are an English teacher, so you should get into something else in Japan, otherwise the English education system will eventually spit you out (or you will become dissatisfied with a perpetually ‘entry level’ salary), because if you don’t, you will wake up one day and realize that you can’t go home because you haven’t got any marketable skills’. Right? I mean, that’s the position, isn’t it?
I do agree with this point of view in so far as many people come to Japan with no thought of staying long term, and don’t expect to get caught in that situation; commitments and ties (along with the feeling that ‘I’ve already invested myself emotionally and financially in Japan, so I shouldn’t cut and run, because maybe if I just make that little extra investment now, I’ll come out a winner’ delusion), and don’t realize until too late that they have invested all their time and effort (and made themselves almost unemployable outside of Japan) in a fraud;
Japan is institutionally racist. All the decks are stacked against you. You can’t get a break out of the English teaching circus? Well, gee, why do you think that is? It’s because the system is working against you! It wants you to cut your losses and go home! Abe has literally said as much ‘We want foreigners to come here and share their skills and then go home’, two years ago.
Having identified the reality of that problem (and many NJ are in total denial about it; see my ‘investment’ comment above), why would you not choose to relocate to a country where every single deck imaginable is not stacked against you? After all, raising a family, earning a wage, starting a business- all of these things not big enough challenges for you? You feel an inexplicable need to add anti-NJ racism into the mix, hindering you and your every interaction, as well?
Maybe you’re just subconsciously choosing to have all the decks stacked against you so that when you fail, you can blame it all on Japan? I don’t know.
Because, do you really think you’re going to ‘win’?
Do you really think that the Japanese system is going to let you?
This is a society that’s still stuck at ‘Can you use chopsticks?’, and ‘Gaijin go home’, do you really think that they’re going to let you become rich and comfy with an upper middle-class lifestyle, with all of the social respect, courtesy, and security that goes with it?
After all, ‘Yakuza and foreigners have no rights in Japan’, you remember that? The Osaka Chief Public Prosecutor in a lecture to Police recruits.
The Japanese have made absolutely zero progress with regard to respecting NJ human rights since they fudged the Japanese translation of GHQ’s constitution to remove the constitutional protection of non-Japanese.
Zero.
And as Brooks said, the Japanese economic pie is shrinking every year, and the Japanese see you as the lowest of the low. Do you really think that you’re going to get any of that ‘pie’, and if you do, do you think they are going to let you keep it?
I read the other day that public debt to GDP is 240%, soon to reach 250%. All public, private, and corporate debt in Japan is around 700% of GDP. The truth is, that there isn’t even a ‘pie’ anymore! This whole economy is a debt fueled zombie; why would you make any meaningful investment here? Ford (for example) knows this, which is why they have left Japan (and before you say, ‘But America’s debt…!’, remember that we are talking about living in Japan, the world isn’t a binary choice between the US and Japan).
Sure, Japan is fine for a couple of years; eat the food, have some ‘dates’, see the sights, relax after university for a couple of years. But when it gets to the business of making a future for yourself, you should be smarter, and go somewhere where the odds are better stacked in your favor.
Someone above asked me about myself. I studied Japan and Japanese as an undergrad, post grad, and a post grad in Japan. I taught English at university, but it bored me senseless (seriously, put your hand up if your lifelong dream was always to be an English teacher. No? I thought not. Me too). So I knew that I would have to bail. Then I met my Japanese wife, fell in love, and started a family. I got out of teaching and used my savings to start my own international trading business using my Japanese language ‘skills’, and my native English combined with my social network outside of Japan.
I am ready to wrap that whole business up in a hour, and go to the airport if there is another nuclear disaster, or Abe starts a war or something. I am ready to wind up the business and go when I get sick of the racism. Since I am self employed, I literally don’t have to interact with anyone that I don’t want to, and it reduces a lot of the stress (maybe this is the feeling that Japanese people get from wearing surgical masks all the time?).
My wife has her own successful business and there is no need to rely on my income, if there were an economic collapse, I suspect that a very weak ¥ would boost her exports enough to maintain her profitability.
However, she could choose to sell her business at anytime, and do something else, and we could take the family with us.
TLDR? I’m not invested in Japan, and neither is my family. When it’s ‘too much hassle’ or the money stops flowing in, we’re gone.
@ Jim, good post and thanks for sharing the personal experience. I think this thread is really helping some people to make some hard choices.
I.e. How to leave.
I am a teacher but I want security that I cannot get in this country.
I want a job til I retire. I want another pension. Japanese teachers get it, why can’t I?
I think the greatest cause of stress occurs with one’s job, especially if it is full-time.
The pressure to work more, deal with a bad boss and to get along (which really means to conform).
I find those who kiss up can make it, but I refuse to do that.
I can see why people juggle a few jobs – they can be left alone.
The Japanese like to manage people but as foreigners we really don’t want to be micromanaged.
The older we get, we don’t want to be told what to do.
Yes, if you cannot make enough money, why bother? If your income is sufficient you can put up with hassles, to a point.
@ Brooks #31
Those who kiss up aren’t really making it, they’re just delaying the bursting of their bubble that will inevitably come the first time they say ‘please sir, can I have some more’. Just look at Greg Clarke.
@ Baudrillard #30
Thank you. I was sold a lie by my uni teachers back home who are vested interests because this Japanese foundation, or that Japanese company, is funding a chair, or a part of the department, so they can’t teach the reality of Japan- they’d be teaching themselves out of jobs! I should have asked them why they don’t live in Japan if it’s so great, but hey, hindsight and all…
Anyway, I wouldn’t have done all that if I’d known.
But knowing, all I can say is that you have to take your pride and ego out of it, and look at it purely as a business proposition; are you doing something in Japan that is giving you the life you want? Yes? Well done! No? Bail.
Most of the points regarding remaining in Japan have been covered already. I’d like to share my experiences of leaving Japan (twice) and how that worked out for me.
I arrived in the mid-’80s. The first time I left was around 2003. I had been in Japan for 18 years. During that time, I had married a woman with two children and worked extremely hard to support them. My wife and I plus her older daughter who was about to begin university, relocated to the UK where I was born.
All I can say was that the reverse culture shock was intense. I have no idea if my experience was typical but I have heard others who found trying to reintegrate into their own culture extremely difficult. I was back in my sleepy hometown where I couldn’t relate at all to the parochial mind set that was so pervasive. Moreover, I had been nostalgic for a Britain that had already gone. I have heard a number of long-term expats who said much the same when they attempted to live back in their homelands.
I managed to find a job, but it was tedious, poorly paid work at the local Council. I sank into deep depression and a sense of isolation. My wife, in contrast, seemed fairly happy.
After two years we returned to Japan. My wife’s elder daughter stayed behind to complete her studies and has lived in the UK ever since. My wife and I separated.
The second attempt was a few months after the Fukushima disaster. I spent ten months in the UK on a sabbatical that finally cured me of any wish to live there again. Since then, I have lived alone in Japan and earn enough to be comfortable. I’m self-employed and as Brooks (31) said I juggle several jobs which helps. I can afford the holidays one previous poster mentioned. So long as I can maintain this I will stay. I am nearly 55 so it is probably too late for me to relocate unless I go somewhere I can find teaching work. I see no alternative to staying put.
Essentially, I can’t imagine living elsewhere would be any better.
One thing I forgot to add was a piece of advice for anyone considering leaving Japan. If at all possible, line up work before you leave and spend some time getting to know the place you intend to move to. Sounds obvious, but I didn’t do this and suffered for it.
Brooks #31,”Yes, if you cannot make enough money, why bother? ”
Is why I no longer live in Japan. To put up with a a bullying, difficult, obtuse work culture and cultural differences, weird, harrassing colleagues who try to report you to immigration, the police home visits, the “infectious paranoia” of the average person in your building or neighborhood and the sense of alienation, or just the odd things which happen every two or three months or so just when you were starting to relax, but for a meagre salary just mean it is not worth it.
All this just to satisfy e.g. an anime fetish?
Ex-pat deal, or it just is not worth it.
Well moving back and not knowing anyone is tough. Plus if your spouse is not happy, another problem. Some Japanese women don’t want to live outside Japan. At least they need to make friends in the new place.
@Eric C’s comment really resonates with me. I’m 45 years old with a wife, daughter, 4 cats, and multiple properties. I’d say that qualifies me as someone pretty much painted into a corner with my life in Japan.
In my favor I’ve got a variety of work experience, an MA, and after liquidating our property we’ll have some money. My plan is to go back to school and get a primary/secondary teachers license. I have not been teaching so much in the last ten years but it’s something I enjoy. Particularly if the students aren’t zombies.
No doubt what I’m doing won’t be easy. But there’s little I would not do for my daughter. And it will be an adventure.
I’m not sure I agree with @Eric about suffering a DRASTIC decrease in quality of life after leaving Japan. Cosmopolitan city dwellers we are not, I expect it to be the same or increase. As with country living in North America you get a lot more bang for your buck.
Just the relief at having my daughter in a proper school with a bright future will put a permanent dopey grin on my face.
But back to @Eric C’s main point. Always have a plan B, and it’s NEVER to late to make a plan B. Wiser words were never spoken.
Hotspur, I am certified in Arizona and Waashington. Certification is ongoing and there are tests that must be taken by the deadlines. Washington is quite strict and to teach English there are tests in reading, writing and even math.
Main thing is to pick a state your wife would be willing to live in.
Now my wife wants to live in Hawaii, where there is strict animal quarantine.
I confess I’m surprised that Debito hasn’t shared his own experiences here.
@Debito: My understanding is that you spent most of your adult life in Japan, changed citizenship to Japanese, and still decided to leave to return to your home country. Can you share with us what went into your decision?
— That’s not quite how I would portray what happened. And I can’t share my experience anonymously like you all can; I have internet stalkers. So, sorry, but no.
I had the same experience that Blackrat did when I returned to Canada: the reverse culture shock was intense, and I sank into a deep depression for about 18 months. The culture was different, I found it hard to find a job, and it was very dicey with money for a few years. I would have liked to have gone back to Japan at that time, but didn’t have the resources.
Thanks to Hotspur and others on here. Your experiences resonate and I am at least relieved that I am not alone in my ruminations about ‘getting the hell out of Dodge’.
I’ve needed to get the following off my chest for some time, but have not had the opportunity. So please indulge me.
Background to my situation:
I met my Japanese wife at Uni in the UK 20 years ago, and have been in Japan since graduation. I somehow managed to learn the language (read & write – using a word processor) and got an MA.
I’d always planned to go back to the UK when Japan was finally ‘out of my system’ – a vague concept meaning I somehow had to be satisfied I’d ‘conquered’ the place, had been accepted and assimilated, and treated as normal (either rudely or politely!) I have no idea why I decided to set myself this futile and ultimately pointless challenge: I still don’t even know what ‘satisfaction’ actually entails. I guess for years I’ve just felt an overwhelming sense of 「ムカつく！」at my constantly being denied acceptance into society – at times I’ve been allowed into the inner sanctum, but at others I’ve been overtly ostracized. This has encouraged a mighty chip on my shoulder to develop and an over-riding “I’ll show them!” attitude. I even went as far as getting a mortgage and buying a place here – “I will not be denied!”, was my clouded thinking. But it was ultimately a battle I could not win. The mental confusion at always being on the periphery, sometimes invited in, sometimes left out, led me into a deep depression, twice – both times after I’d given the assimilation challenge a real good go to no avail. I admit I have come to dislike Japan and find fault at every turn, some of it justified, some due to my poisoned state of mind.
During this mentally exhausting journey, I left teaching and became a translator & interpreter and now ultimately a foreign client advisor at a local law firm (which sounds much grander than it actually is). But I still felt ‘othered’. I am very isolated as the only foreigner in the firm. I am basically tasked with dealing with other foreigners. Nobody speaks much anyway – the entire office can go from 9am to 9pm with barely 10 minutes worth of conversation passing between us. I find I am anxious most of the time – I need to communicate, and preferably in my native tongue!
My qualifications and worth at the firm is that I am a foreigner, i.e. when others of my kind arrive or phone it’s a case of “bring out the gimp” (for those of you who have seen Pulp Fiction.) I actually feel like a fraud and charlatan doing stuff each day that anyone who speaks native English could learn within a week or two. There is no prospect for promotion, only stagnation. I could join another similar firm for similar pay just for the variety, but would drop back to the ’10 days’ holiday all newbies get here – not something I wish to do given my desire to get out at every opportunity.
I feel I have painted myself into the corner somebody else has mentioned here. Prospects are limited back home: translation of Japanese is a poorly paid, limited gig in post-Brexit Britain and my ‘foreign client advisory’ experience is mostly bullshit blagging and hardly transferable. For the Brits amongst you, we also have to overcome the salary/occupation hurdle set up by the lovely Ms.Teresa May when bringing our non-EU spouses back to the UK. Starting a new career from scratch back there hardly seems viable either.
I’ve known I am basically stuck in Japan for some time; although I admit this is partly down to inertia on my part – perhaps due to being left with no opportunity to use my initiative to move freely between roles and social structures? I was once able to cope with this predicament because of: i) my salary, which is ok, but not great; ii) a loving, ‘international looking’ wife with a British sense of humour; iii) holidays in Asia; and iv) Western friends, who I’ve sometimes felt unease about hanging out with since it encourages the ‘gaijin ghetto’ othering I’d attempted to overcome. But my ability to cope has taken a severe beating these last two years since, at the age of 42, we welcomed our first born son into the world rather unexpectedly. He is fantastic obviously, but soon some of the questions others have raised above about bringing up a kid here started coming to my mind thick and fast. He is a very inquisitive, enthusiastic chap and I just don’t want this drummed out of him by an education system which churns out mathematically competent yes men with limited ability or inclination to use the noggin God gave em in any creative pursuit (and they are the lucky ones.) Also, as a long term ‘real’ expat (rather than one on an expense account jolly) I cannot afford to send him to a reputable international school.
So what to do? Any advice would be very much appreciated! I’m coming round to the idea of going back – yes, even to Brexit Britain! Given my past mental state and the lack of Japanese related prospects back there, I’d prefer to make a clean break of all things Japan and start afresh. Maybe go back to school to train in something else (not teaching – which fills me with dread.) We don’t have much savings for our age, but enough to buy a place outright anywhere apart from London. The question is could I (and my wife) earn enough to retire in 20 odd years….
Wow. That was quite cathartic. Needed to vent spleen, so apologies if what I’ve said is not exactly in keeping with the main tenor of the thread. Thanks to anyone who has trawled through this far! Anyone with similar experiences? Anyone successfully made the transition back? Anyone who has successfully retrained?
@ Tokugawa’s Token Gaijin,
I can see where you’re coming from.
You could do what I did;
Go self-employed, and invest less; Japan isn’t ‘worth it’- make enough money to provide for your family, indulge your spending habits, and through your head back and laugh at all the sheeple ‘enjoying’ the mind-numbing, soul-destroying drudgery of their allegedly great ‘insider status’.
I do. 😉
@Tokugawa’s token gaijin I feel you man!
My plan is very much a leap of faith. I guses its all about deciding what you want for you and your families future. When I think about what my daughters life would be after growing up here I’m fleeing this place like I would a war zone.
I’m a US citizen but my goal is to settle in Canada. There is no reason to be tied to your home country. There are always options.
@Tokugawa’s Token Gaijin,
That’s a very interesting post.
To quote the character Tuttle from the movie Brazil, “You’re a good man in a tight corner.”
Here’s the way I see it:
I don’t think you should try to go back to the UK. It’s not the same country you left about 20 years ago. There are many problems there, including the ludicrously high cost of living and social problems relating to the fact that the country has admitted hoards of people who belong to a culture that is antithetical to traditional British culture (enough said on that issue and hopefully you understand what I’m speaking about).
Canada, Australia and New Zealand are all good choices, but it’s bloody hard to get a permanent residence visa for any of them, especially with a skill set that they don’t really value.
Other countries in Europe might be interesting, but now that the UK has voted to leave the EU, it’s not certain that you will be able to live in any of them long term.
That leaves places like Singapore, Hong Kong, Thailand etc, or more exotic destinations. Again, visas and schools will be an issue in all such places. But, for the imaginative and determined person, these can all be made to work. The biggest worry is that your son will become a “third-country person,” who is raised in that country, but not really from that country.
Therefore, I hate to say it, but your best bet is probably to stay in Japan and create some sort of self-employment. If you’re working for yourself in Japan, most of the bothersome aspects of the country fade into the background. And, Japan has a relatively low cost of living (half or less than that of the UK). Even international schools are not that expensive. You can find them for as little as Y1 million a year, which really isn’t a lot of money. And, you can travel a lot to the UK or other places so that your son gets a real international mindset.
Okay, this is not ideal, as I explained in my earlier post. But, I’m pretty sure that this is preferable to going back to the UK and suffering one helluva bad case of reverse culture shock, going broke and then dragging your ass (sorry, arse) back to Japan, poorer, older and more bitter.
The key point, as I mentioned above, is to get your mind out of that passive employee mindset. Forget about training. Figure out how you can start a business that uses your present skill set or one that is related to your present skill set. Sounds like you could do some kind of consulting. Surely, there are both Japanese and international clients who would pay for your skills. And, since you would be a freelancer rather than a company, you could undercut whatever your present company charges. Sure, it won’t be that easy, but it’s actually probably a lot easier than being, as you put it, “retrained.”
And, if you do build a decent business in Japan, you would always have the option of moving to the UK and running it from there.
Just, for god’s sake, stop thinking in terms of “Won’t someone give me a job?” and start thinking in terms of “How can I make my own business?”
Eric C above is right on so many points; think about setting up your own (side) business, and I would add to that, consider moving to a cheaper part of Japan. Set up your own school maybe? Many have done that, and you could use your teaching experience and yet not have to teach if you hire others.
Eric C says Britain is not country the country it was as it ” has admitted hoards of people who belong to a culture that is antithetical to traditional British culture”.
While I am pro Brexit, I feel differently about the above; surely then, this could be an opportunity for you and your Japanese wife to make a go of it in the UK (NOT London) although indeed, it is a horrible hurdle of minimum salary for bring over your non EU spouse that lovely Mother Teresa May introduced while home secretary.
Could you not stay with your family in Britain? Without family support it is going to be very expensive to make a go of it in the UK. On the other hand, there is the benefit system as a safety net, but again, (no)thanks to Theresa May its easier for an EU Bulgarian to get a handout (at least for the moment) but not so easy for your Japanese wife and child.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/21/families-challenge-minimum-income-visa-rules-supreme-court-non-eu-partner
Again, this was an argument of UKIP’s for Brexit, but as by bizarre circumstance Theresa May ascended to power instead of Boris and co, it seems unlikely this part of the manifesto will be carried out.
I can only hope it will be her downfall as the unpopular poll tax was for Thatcher- an albatross around her neck. But again, as in Japan, do enough people actually care about the plight of foreigners for it to reach critical mass and push for repeal? Well, a bit more than in Japan, as one spouse is British in these cases I have hope.
e.g.
“The bard of Glastonbury is leaving Glastonbury because of these rules,” the only option he has found to secure a better-paying job that would allow his American wife Erica Viola to join him in the UK.”
FYI, I was seeking Eng-Japanese translation work in Britain long before Brexit and it was then as it is now, part time with varying pay. NO difference. I just hope post Brexit there will be less EU people competing for these and other jobs. Wasnt that the point of Brexit?
Also post Brexit, as Britain reconnects with The Commonwealth, as advised above, why not look into jobs in Commonwealth countries, e.g Australia?
Finally, I would consider getting some additional qualification. You say you have an MA, could you not work towards a PHD or failing that, an easily obtainable certificate online?
@ Tokugawa Token gaijin, ” enough to buy a place outright anywhere apart from London.”
Wow, that is more than I have. Dont blow that on renting in the meantime though. Again, could you not stay with your family until you get a job and then buy a place near said job? What job you would be happy to do in the UK, however, is your decision although all my family are recently saying that working in an office in the UK is most unpleasant with a lot of PC rules causing an atmosphere of fear about saying anything at all. E.g. “Brainstorming” and “whiteboard” are all contentious words now, although I only have their word on the latter.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2162568/Council-bans-brainstorming.html
Sounds very doable, you have far better prospects than me (but I am not married).
@TTG, well it certainly sounds like you need to get out if you can. I’d have thought the UK salary rule should be surmountable if you can find a professional job anywhere above the very bottom rungs. That does rule out just moving/retraining though, you would need to leverage your skills as much as possible. Our situation was less complicated so we could just pack our bags and walk out. I don’t regret moving back for a minute, though I am still a bit sad that our Japanese time ended so unhappily.
Thanks guys, didn’t realize there are so many supportive folks out there. Haven’t had time to read through them yet, but will get back to you here, again. Thanks.
Well I think Australia would be good since there would be demand for your work, maybe in Sydney. Otherwise if you are qualified to teach Japanese, there is a need for Asian languages.
Otherwise Australia’s economy is good, minimum wage is about the highest in the world and even people who work in department stores get a good wage.
Food. The only alternatives would be France or Italy
Party. Alternatives: Germany or Spain
Order and Safety. Switzerland Or China.
Women. Nothing compares to here.
Climate. Mediterranean or California?
Advanced career options. Can’t believe that out of all places people run out of options in a class A city like Tokyo. London and New York are the only competitors.
Is what convinces me there is no better place than Tokyo. The grass is always greener on the other side – but I m traveling enough to see what’s unappealing in other countries compared to here.
My worries.
Child education. True. But there are international schools.
Retirement and getting sick. Japanese Doctors suck and the pension system too.
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